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athoscouto 6 hours ago [-]
We've been impacted by this. I migrated our services to Python 3.14 so we could attach profilers during runtime.
A couple of services looked like they had a memory leak. Memory was continuously increasing over time. Thanks to Python 3.14, we were able to use memray to understand what was going on. Those services were recreating HTTP clients (aiohttp) for every inbound request, and memory allocated by the downstream SSL lib was growing faster than it was being released.
We ended up rolling back to 3.13, which fixed the issue. I'll try again with 3.14.5.
LaFolle 5 hours ago [-]
On profilers - profiling will come in 3.15, are you referring to remote exec? It is a great feature I am very exited about, at the same time afraid that the company won’t allow ptrace capability in prod.
athoscouto 3 hours ago [-]
yes. remote exec allows me to attach profilers (e.g. memray) directly into a running process. i'm also excited about the upcoming statistical (cpu) profiler from 3.15
davidkwast 8 hours ago [-]
"Python 3.14 shipped with a new incremental garbage collector. However, we’ve had a number of reports of significant memory pressure in production environments.
We’ve decided to revert it in both 3.14 and 3.15, and go back to the generational GC from 3.13."
Sounds the right move for me
winrid 6 hours ago [-]
The main benefit of python to me is that while slow, it's predictable. I do think they're going to get a lot more resistance to adding JITs, moving GCs, etc. it will become java with a million knobs to tune. If people want a JIT'd python just use pypy, right?
pron 5 hours ago [-]
Java lost almost all those knobs a while ago (I mean they're there, but you're better off relying on the defaults). The modern GCs have one or at most two knobs remaining, and even that will become unnecessary next year. As to predictablity, you get maximal pause time of well under 1ms for heaps up to 16TB.
stackskipton 6 hours ago [-]
As Python using SRE and supporting Python Flask apps, most of us would love JIT in Python assuming it pretty much drop in replacement.
PyPy doesn't have the support it needs and is stuck on 3.11.
zozbot234 4 hours ago [-]
Why not just use Go? It has a proper concurrent, non-moving GC that, AIUI, has not been associated with sudden memory spikes.
brokencode 40 minutes ago [-]
For a new project, teams can decide whether to use Go, but there are many millions of lines of existing Python servers out there.
Not to mention that there are differences in ecosystem, familiarity, and ergonomics that may make a team want to stick with Python.
“Just use Go” is not really actionable advice in most cases.
davidkwast 5 hours ago [-]
It is the same for me. Predicability is better than any optimization.
sigmoid10 6 hours ago [-]
And if people want python with java, there's always Jython.
brokensegue 6 hours ago [-]
jython has been basically unmaintained for quite some time
sigmoid10 6 hours ago [-]
Well, they never made the jump to Python 3. But shipping 2.7 interpreters in 2024 was quite an achievement on its own. So their users already know this pain. And from my experience in academia, python 2.7 and java 8 will probably be used for another 20 years before the last machine running that stuff burns out.
froh 1 hours ago [-]
jpype and graalpy are life.
jython went EOL.with python 2 going EOL.
arikrahman 5 hours ago [-]
Jython is unmaintained, I'd recommend Clojure. Use python libraries and code while seamlessly targeting the JVM.
brian_herman 5 hours ago [-]
Graal vm has support for python 3 unfortunately it’s funded by oracle.
pjmlp 3 hours ago [-]
Java is funded by Oracle, all of it.
People parrot to use OpenJDK without understanding it is mostly Oracle employees working on it.
And if you dislike Oracle, the other minor contributors are Red-Hat, IBM, SAP, Microsoft, Alibaba, Azul,... which for many HNers are the same.
wavemode 4 hours ago [-]
If it makes you feel any better (it probably doesn't), the development of OpenJDK and the Java language itself is also mostly funded by Oracle
graemep 6 hours ago [-]
Resistance from anyone who matters to the developers?
NooneAtAll3 8 hours ago [-]
I'm genuinely surprised that python change was even possible without PEP
giancarlostoro 7 hours ago [-]
Makes ya miss having a BDFL. Dang I didn't realize he's 70 now.
I wouldn’t recommend running the latest Python in prod. Honestly 3.x.7 releases are the most mature .
giancarlostoro 31 minutes ago [-]
I'm currently in a .NET shop so not an issue for me, makes me wonder if Python will eventually adopt the concept of LTS releases, this could have been avoided as an issue if it was part of a non-LTS release.
AdamN 7 hours ago [-]
Yeah it seems like a miss. I guess the thinking was that it wasn't developer-facing and just an internal optimization. But of course any change to garbage collection will change the memory and cpu dynamics of the process in a material way.
metalliqaz 5 hours ago [-]
It's not a change to the language, it's a change to the cpython runtime
ammar2 2 hours ago [-]
PEPs aren't necessarily just for language changes, e.g https://peps.python.org/pep-0436/ which is largely a CPython implementation detail.
Fizzadar 7 hours ago [-]
Exactly! Would like to understand more how that came about. PEP exists for a reason.
bhouston 6 hours ago [-]
.NET seems to have regularly changed the garbage collector over the years and I do not remember any similar surprises in production. I wonder why they have had better experience?
I thought that by now dynamic garbage collection was a known quantity so that making changes, outside of out right bugs, is fairly safe and predictable?
stackskipton 6 hours ago [-]
One thing Microsoft does really well is eating its own dogfood and Microsoft feeds a ton of .Net dogs.
So any change to GC starts with massive .Net MSFT code base so they get extremely good telemetry back about any downsides and might be able to fix it in time.
pjmlp 3 hours ago [-]
Did really well, unfortunately.
There is almost no dog fooding on Windows development since version 8, Typescript team rather rewrite the compiler in Go, Azure has plenty of Go, Rust and Java projects alongside .NET.
stackskipton 2 hours ago [-]
Microsoft does use Go/Rest/Java in places but they still have a ton of .Net.
Windows Development is not "We are not dogfooding", it's that incentives are misaligned with customer wants.
.Net team incentives are aligned with customer wants, provide a language that is highly performant and easy enough to write.
pjmlp 1 hours ago [-]
Oh, they really don't dogfood Windows development any longer, regardless of the incentives.
I have my WinRT 8, UAP 8.1, UWP 10, Project Reunion, .NET Native, C++/CX, C++/WinRT, XAML Islands, XAML Direct, WinUI 2.0, WinUi 3.0, WinAppSDK and what not scars to prove how they aren't dog fooding any piece of it in any meaningful manner.
Heck they keep talking about C++ support in WinUI 3, as if the team hasn't left the project and is now playing with Rust instead.
They managed that plenty of early WinRT advocates became their hardest critics, while not believing anything else they put out, like now this Windows K2 project.
onlyrealcuzzo 1 hours ago [-]
Well, .NET is just not in the same class as Go and Rust.
Go is, essentially, nearly perfect at what it does - even if the language itself leaves much to be desired and would ideally be much safer.
Microsoft should up their game. They have a few research languages in development.
They've always been great with languages. Hopefully, they rise to the occassion.
pjmlp 45 minutes ago [-]
The only thing Go has going for it was getting lucky with Docker and co, and UNIX/Plan 9/Inferno pedigree.
Now we're stuck with it in anything CNCF related.
jaapz 3 minutes ago [-]
I like my programming language flame wars just as much as the next guy but Go is a really easy language to get started with, while also being very fast. It's not just luck
Weryj 6 hours ago [-]
Actually there’s a change to dotnet 9 with how it handles the heap and GC which caused major issues for us.
I’ll confess the reason it hit us so hard is because the code quality was so low and wasteful on allocations that it didn’t hide the problem as well as previous versions.
chihuahua 5 hours ago [-]
I remember working on the Windows Update back-end at Microsoft around 2005, and we had a problem where it would freeze up periodically, and not surprisingly that turned out to be caused by GC. But we noticed it before shipping, and we just tweaked some GC parameters.
So I think it was not a big problem for .Net because it gave you enough control over GC, and because people tested their code before putting it in production.
sega_sai 6 hours ago [-]
I think reverting is not problem per se, but releasing a highly problematic version without proper testing in such an essential component is.
LaFolle 5 hours ago [-]
Yeah they noted that it went without PEP. Looks like a PEP will come now if it maintains at par perf.
emil-lp 5 hours ago [-]
If I understand correctly, this is one of the changes that caused the regression:
If using containers I believe this change was pushed in image python:3.14.5-slim-trixie
hpcgroup 2 hours ago [-]
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sathishmg 4 hours ago [-]
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lukassbrad 6 hours ago [-]
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__loam 5 hours ago [-]
Python is such a mess.
askllk 7 hours ago [-]
All these issues were known in previous attempts for removing the GIL. But if Instagram/Meta want it, everyone stands to attention and finds out the obvious problems years later. Kind of like in geopolitics.
I hope Meta switches Instagram to PHP/Hack so they leave Python alone.
simonw 7 hours ago [-]
The no-GIL work (free-threading) is unrelated to this incremental GC work.
In the world of AI written code, Python just doesn’t make sense. Converted about 100k lines in the last few months to golang and the performance is life changing. Curious if we will see global Python adoption fall by 75% or more in the next few years.
mau 6 hours ago [-]
I think humans are still accountable for the code generated by agents.
You are free to switch language but you still need to understand it.
tdb7893 6 hours ago [-]
With a similar amount of experience with both languages I found Go much easier to read. I've always been a bit miffed why Python is seen as easy to read for experienced developers. I get the syntax is good for short code or people with little experience but my experience is those readability benefits went away quickly with time or complexity.
sieve 1 hours ago [-]
Any language that uses error codes instead of exceptions is a non-starter for me. Produces code that craps all over the happy path.
Python has a different problem: it is slow as f---. I did a micro benchmark comparison against 5 other languages in preparation for my python replacement language. Outside of dictionary lookups, it is 50-600 times slower than C depending on the workload.
Go, Rust etc are fine. They land at 1.25-3x slower than C. But I prefer the readability of python minus its dynamic nature.
mywittyname 5 hours ago [-]
Why are you miffed about it? I legitimately hate reading golang with passion and find python to be pretty intuitive, outside of the odd ambitious list comprehensions. I worked in a golang shop for several years, so it's not just an familiarity situation either.
We are just different. That's not something to be mad about.
Yokohiii 4 hours ago [-]
In my opinion most interpreted languages today tend to produce very dense code. Fancy call chains and closures interleaving. If you look for a subtle bug those are hard to reason about, you have to know the details of a lot of different APIs.
Go is verbose partly for that reason, but a silly loop is a silly loop. The constraints are clear, you only have to do the logic.
__loam 5 hours ago [-]
Python is a garbage language. Dynamic types are a disaster for maintaining large codebases and we waste enormous amounts of compute running large systems with it.
lijok 4 hours ago [-]
We should all go back to writing assembly
__loam 3 hours ago [-]
No we should write one of the many modern programming languages that handle certain projects way better, including kotlin, go, or Java. The only things python is best in class at are scripting and as a harness for high performance c++ or fortran.
lijok 1 hours ago [-]
What about the projects that python handles better?
dec0dedab0de 6 hours ago [-]
I think we'll eventually be generating machine code directly. But until then we should be using code that our team can actually read and understand. If you know go, then that works you, Not everyone does.
H8crilA 2 hours ago [-]
Doubt it. LLMs will always be more expensive per-token than compilers, and high level languages need fewer tokens than machine code. Also, type systems, warnings, overlap with natural language in names - those are very useful.
backwardation_b 6 hours ago [-]
nothing about the performance characteristics of python changed with AI so why would you use python over golang if performance is a requirement/bottleneck? Trying to understand the reasoning as to me golang and python are equally simple to write and understand.
Yokohiii 4 hours ago [-]
If language X is a persons comfort zone, that person will often default to it. Python is certainly more widespread then go.
Also, even if it looks like that to you, there are still people that write code with their own hands.
phainopepla2 6 hours ago [-]
Regardless of whether golang and python are actually equally simple, python certainly has the reputation of being easier to write and read than almost any other language. That is a big part of its popularity.
zozbot234 4 hours ago [-]
Python is not really simple though, the semantics are actually quite bonkers. It just has "simple"-looking syntax, but that only helps you for trivial programs where the bonkers semantics does not get in the way.
lern_too_spel 3 hours ago [-]
For personal projects, yes. For code going into production, you still need human code review, and that has to happen in a language that the humans you've hired are comfortable with. One day, we'll all be YOLOing vibe code straight into production, but that day is not today.
A couple of services looked like they had a memory leak. Memory was continuously increasing over time. Thanks to Python 3.14, we were able to use memray to understand what was going on. Those services were recreating HTTP clients (aiohttp) for every inbound request, and memory allocated by the downstream SSL lib was growing faster than it was being released.
We ended up rolling back to 3.13, which fixed the issue. I'll try again with 3.14.5.
We’ve decided to revert it in both 3.14 and 3.15, and go back to the generational GC from 3.13."
Sounds the right move for me
PyPy doesn't have the support it needs and is stuck on 3.11.
Not to mention that there are differences in ecosystem, familiarity, and ergonomics that may make a team want to stick with Python.
“Just use Go” is not really actionable advice in most cases.
jython went EOL.with python 2 going EOL.
People parrot to use OpenJDK without understanding it is mostly Oracle employees working on it.
And if you dislike Oracle, the other minor contributors are Red-Hat, IBM, SAP, Microsoft, Alibaba, Azul,... which for many HNers are the same.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guido_van_Rossum
I thought that by now dynamic garbage collection was a known quantity so that making changes, outside of out right bugs, is fairly safe and predictable?
So any change to GC starts with massive .Net MSFT code base so they get extremely good telemetry back about any downsides and might be able to fix it in time.
There is almost no dog fooding on Windows development since version 8, Typescript team rather rewrite the compiler in Go, Azure has plenty of Go, Rust and Java projects alongside .NET.
Windows Development is not "We are not dogfooding", it's that incentives are misaligned with customer wants.
.Net team incentives are aligned with customer wants, provide a language that is highly performant and easy enough to write.
I have my WinRT 8, UAP 8.1, UWP 10, Project Reunion, .NET Native, C++/CX, C++/WinRT, XAML Islands, XAML Direct, WinUI 2.0, WinUi 3.0, WinAppSDK and what not scars to prove how they aren't dog fooding any piece of it in any meaningful manner.
Heck they keep talking about C++ support in WinUI 3, as if the team hasn't left the project and is now playing with Rust instead.
They managed that plenty of early WinRT advocates became their hardest critics, while not believing anything else they put out, like now this Windows K2 project.
Go is, essentially, nearly perfect at what it does - even if the language itself leaves much to be desired and would ideally be much safer.
Microsoft should up their game. They have a few research languages in development.
They've always been great with languages. Hopefully, they rise to the occassion.
Now we're stuck with it in anything CNCF related.
I’ll confess the reason it hit us so hard is because the code quality was so low and wasteful on allocations that it didn’t hide the problem as well as previous versions.
So I think it was not a big problem for .Net because it gave you enough control over GC, and because people tested their code before putting it in production.
https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/117120
I hope Meta switches Instagram to PHP/Hack so they leave Python alone.
Free-threading actually uses its own, separate GC: https://labs.quansight.org/blog/free-threaded-gc-3-14
You are free to switch language but you still need to understand it.
Python has a different problem: it is slow as f---. I did a micro benchmark comparison against 5 other languages in preparation for my python replacement language. Outside of dictionary lookups, it is 50-600 times slower than C depending on the workload.
Go, Rust etc are fine. They land at 1.25-3x slower than C. But I prefer the readability of python minus its dynamic nature.
We are just different. That's not something to be mad about.
Go is verbose partly for that reason, but a silly loop is a silly loop. The constraints are clear, you only have to do the logic.
Also, even if it looks like that to you, there are still people that write code with their own hands.